Interview Transcript: Advancing Gender Equality in Investment Management

Melissa:

My name is Melissa Norris and I am one of the founders of Jamesbeck, a boutique executive search firm focused on the investment management community. I’m chatting with Cheri Belski, Head of Retirement for the U.S. at T. Rowe Price, and Meg Staczek, founder of Capacity Group and Executive Coach for Jamesbeck as a follow up from the panel we held last year. In November of 2018, we held a panel in New York City to discuss women in leadership. Today, I’m speaking with Cheri and Meg as a follow up to see what changes in programs have been introduced as a result of the topics discussed at our event. At our panel in November, we focused on women in investment management. Our panelists shared ways in which women and organizations can help advance gender equality. Cheri, I understand this is something important to you and your firm; can you please say more about that?

 

Cheri:

Sure. We spend a lot of time recognizing that the notion of gender equality is one that obviously has social impacts, economic impacts, but at the front of mind for us is that it is a business imperative, and that it has to be built into everything we do strategically if we want to remain successful longer term. Given that we are an investment led firm and we tend to be very analytical as a result, we look at the numbers and when you look at those, some of the stats that I’ve seen, is that in the U.S, it’ll take us more than 150 years if we keep the same pace to achieve gender equality. We see men getting promoted at 20%, or higher rates, than women from the very first promotion.

 

But on the positive side, we also see numbers that show that financial returns can increase by more than 33% when you have gender equality in the workplace; It increases job satisfaction, it helps with better decision making and innovation. So it really is very front-and-center, top-of-mind for us. And it led to us also signing the CEO pledge for diversity inclusion, which is all about commitment to this focus and inviting, and sometimes invoking, uncomfortable conversations to achieve a better gender equality environment for our business.

 

Melissa: 

I just want to touch on something you mentioned there. I have not seen that stat: that performance increases by 33%.

 

Cheri: 

Yeah, it’s significant. In the firms where they can show it, your bottom line returns are actually impacted. A lot of that has to do with the fact that you do get better innovation. You get new ideas at the table. That diversity of thought that you get when you actually have more gender equality is really the largest contributing factor to the business imperative that it actually is. So, instead of seeing it as something separate and distinct, it really does have to be woven into the fabric of how you are successful as a business.

 

Melissa: 

Wow, that’s fantastic. Currently, you’re Head of Retirement within US Investments at T. Rowe Price. Correct?

 

Cheri: 

That’s right.

 

Melissa: 

What’s been a positive, important experience for you as a woman in investment management?

 

Cheri: 

It’s a great question and one I give a bit of thought to. Over the course of my career, I think one of the most positive experiences I’ve had is just the amount of advocacy and support and sponsorship that I have felt from those men and women at the firm to help me along my career journey. Sometimes it’s been overt that I’ve seen it, I’ve felt it, I’ve known that this is my mentor, this is my advocate, this is the person helping me maneuver. In other cases it’s been more quiet and silent, but I could feel the wind under my wings. It’s been that knowing that it’s there that has really helped me get through some of those more difficult hurdles or parts of my journey where I really had to pull on my own resiliency and perseverance. Knowing that I had the advocacy sponsorship and support behind me really helped me see the opportunity that was in front of me.

 

Melissa: 

That’s fantastic. You’re also the chair of WAVE. Can you tell us briefly what that is and the role it plays in your organization?

 

Cheri:

Sure. WAVE is T. Rowe’s global business resource group focused on women across the world. It has roughly 2,000 members of our 7,000 in the firm, and its whole mission and focus is on recruiting, identifying, developing, promoting and retaining highly capable and high potential women at the firm. And so that’s one aspect of it.

 

Another aspect of it is really to raise awareness around gender specific matters such as gender equality globally and how we should be thinking about it. And at the end of the day, for me specifically as chair, the most significant part of my role as chair of that global women’s group is to provoke and create conversation with our management committee, with our board members, and with our leaders across the organization to help invite some of those uncomfortable discussions, to help us have better diversity and inclusion overall for women and for men at the firm to help our business and help our clients.

 

One example that I’ll highlight is one of the things that we’ve done globally is we created a formal mentoring program. And there’s plenty of research and also feedback quite frankly from men and women that show that mentoring matters for women specifically. We tend to flock towards people that are like us versus maybe people that could help stress us and help us think differently. And this formal mentor program is really set up for women at T. Rowe first, to do just that, to pair them in a way that is maybe a little bit out of their comfort zone but will give them more of what women need to stretch and lean into different types of thinking, capabilities, or connections in roles longer term.

 

Melissa:

That’s fantastic. I have to touch on a few things you said. Meg has mentioned several times that there’s a huge difference between mentorship and sponsorship and that mentorship tends to be much more successful and gets better, stronger results. So, it’s really interesting to hear that that’s what you put in place. Secondly, I wanted to ask you a question. I don’t know if you’d have the answer to this, but as a recruiter, I’m curious to hear ways in which you changed, augmented, enhanced your recruiting efforts, capabilities to attract a more diverse pool of candidates. Do you have insights into that?

 

Cheri: 

Yeah, I do have some. It’s a question I get a lot. First and foremost I’ll say diversity begets diversity, so it’s a bit of a catch 22. If you don’t have it, it’s that much harder to get. And the first thing that we had to work on was getting hiring managers to understand that concept. That when we invite candidates in, they are absolutely looking for people like them, whatever “them” is. And make no mistake, if there’s an absence of someone that looks like them, they’re probably remembering that. And that may be subconscious at first or very conscious in other times, but that is just something that first and foremost we had to educate a lot of our leadership on is that people do pay attention to that.

 

Some changes that we made – they were easy changes quite frankly – were things like: in your interview set – so you’re bringing candidates in – the interviewers should not all look the same. For many reasons: One because, physically, people might be looking for someone that looks more like them, but also for the different perspectives that you get out of those interviewers for each of the candidates. So, we made a conscious decision to make sure that our interviewer lineup looks diverse. It has mixed backgrounds, mixed experiences, mixed type of roles. And that was an easy change but was a change and was different, and we had to help ground that in why contextually we needed to do that. We also made a point to highlight, to bring things more front and center, around the fact that diversity and inclusion does matter. And talk about it more as part of our recruitment process. We kind of left that out before and waited for people to ask for it, if they even did.

 

But often what we found is candidates sometimes won’t ask. More now, I do think generationally we’re seeing this newest generation of workforce ask and be very clear about what they expect and want to see, but you don’t always get it. So we’re trying to be front-footed and saying, “Here’s how we think about it. Here’s how we weave it in. Here’s our business resource groups across pride, multicultural and gender,” and help show the whole of T. Rowe Price, not just the job that they’re applying to. And just two simple changes like that have really changed the course for how candidates have come in and then taken the role.

 

That helps with the point I raised at the beginning, which is the more you have diversity, the more you get interest in diversity. And so then what we’ve been able to do is take a lot of the candidates that have come in where that was top of mind for them and their decision making, and use them as part of the interview and then even on-boarding process. Because they become a testament to why they chose us and how they looked at us as a whole firm and not a singular portion of a firm. And the fact that they joined and what we said, we backed up with our action and so that becomes a really powerful one, two, three step process that has worked for us so far.

 

Megan: 

I really appreciate the layering of the solutions you all have been putting into place. And I would just call out that data from Glassdoor survey (US and Western Europe) talked about 67% of job seekers overall are looking at workforce diversity when evaluating an offer. So, that just underscores the importance of what Cheri is talking about. The other is that 61% of women look at gender diversity of the employer’s leadership team. And we know that this is often a challenge for firms, particularly asset managers, where there’s not a lot of women at the top. But knowing that candidates are looking for this becomes a strong impetus for firms to take action.

 

Melissa: 

I also recently read an article that noted a huge percentage jump in attracting and hiring a diverse candidate if you have two diverse people on the interview panel. And the difference between having one and two was exponential.

 

Cheri:

Yes, similarly, there’s a stat where if in your candidate set you have one female, it’s a hundred percent chance you do not hire that female. You need more than one of someone who’s different than the norm, whatever the norm is, to even get a chance that they get selected.

 

Megan: 

Absolutely, and especially having the “plus one” on both sides of that equation helps reduce the natural bias that exists in firms and in the dominant population.

 

Melissa: 

I understand that you and your co-chair, Melissa Wilson, led an effort to help raise awareness and dialogue about gender bias and equality. What led to that and how did you decide what actions to take to support that?

 

Cheri: 

Yeah, that was an interesting journey. So almost a year and a half ago, right as I was coming into the leadership role for WAVE with Melissa, we were right in the midst of the #metoo and #timesup movements in the U.S. I personally, given the role and the part of the industry that I am in, was feeling it both externally and internally, where men were, to make it simple, just kind of getting weird because of that. They were saying things like “I don’t know if I can say that anymore.” Or, like I had someone compliment me on my new haircut and he said, “I don’t know if I’m allowed to say that anymore.” And I thought that was strange, right?

 

I saw other actions where men were pulling away from women. And you physically saw men retreating and saying, “I’m not going to mentor women” or “I’m not going to travel with a sole female anymore,” which is not helpful. This actually sets us backwards. I’ve always had a lot of passion in general around gender equality, but in that specific environment externally, and then seeing some of the unintended consequences and actions being taken as a result internally at T. Rowe. One day I was at an event that we were holding, and I asked the former chair and then Melissa: What is T. Rowe Price doing to address it? Like our quietness is deafening at this point. We should talk about it. We signed the CEO pledge to invite uncomfortable conversations. I know this will make people uncomfortable, but in absence of it, you’re going to get people making their own decisions and they’re going to set us back in time. And that’s not going to be good for the firm at the end of the day. It’s not going to be good for the talent that we’re trying to retain and attract at the end of the day. And so it certainly won’t help our clients at the end of the day. And so after that, it was like “oh yeah, why aren’t we talking about that?” It was just kind of to put it in their face. It wasn’t that anyone disagreed with me, it’s just they hadn’t thought of it like that. And T. Rowe is not a firm that talks about bolder topics like that on the regular. It felt strange.

 

From there, I basically pulled together a case of examples of “here’s things that we’re seeing, here’s things that are happening. I think we need to have a conversation.” The idea was, let’s first start at more of the senior executive level to have smaller, intimate conversations where trust has to be born before you can do this big splash or like this big post on our internal global net site. It really needs to be these smaller, intimate conversations with the influencers of the organization so that we have that trust, that community and that understanding. And then we can do something bigger with it. That’s how we wanted to start it. I will tell you along the way, it made people really nervous. At one point it took a sidetrack and it turned into a sexual harassment training. And I remember when the group brought it back to me and was like, “Here’s what we’re going to do.” And I was like, “Oh my God, no.” And they wanted to pilot it with my sales team, which is all white men. And I was like, if you want to get people to run for the hills, this is how to do it. I don’t think that’s our goal. This isn’t about sexual harassment. It’s about understanding gender dynamics. And this is for men and for women, by the way. What’s not good for women is also not good for men. And so once I re-framed it, then we made some progress. That’s where I had already been engaged with Meg as an Executive Coach and was talking to her about it.

 

The quick recognition of how important the smaller conversations were at that key influencers levels first became really evident. And then we shifted into, okay, “How do we structure it?” It can’t be a T. Rowe person facilitating it and moderating it. And that’s where it really started to take shape. Where we invited Megan to help shape it, to help facilitate it, to work with our CEO who was fully behind it – so much so that he kicked it off for us, which was great. But he also wanted to stay for the conversation. So I had the dubious honor saying, “No, we’re not going to have you stay, just trust me. I love the intent, but the team really needs to feel like they can say what they need to say with no repercussions among peers.” And that’s how we set it up. And the proof is in the pudding.

 

I think people came in absolutely cautious and absolutely a little bit nervous about “What is this? Why am I selected? And what’s about to happen to me? And what’s going to happen after?” At the end of it though, we consistently heard from people walking out of the room, “This was the best conversation I’ve ever had at this firm. How do we do this more?” Which is a real testament to the approach we took. And you know, Meg was really provocative in the questions that she asked. And then how we discussed it was really innovative and unique, and I think immediately put people’s shoulders down. So, it really had the impact we wanted. And that was a great way to start.

 

Melissa: 

That’s fantastic. And what were the results from this work?

 

Cheri:

So some of the results from this work are: We took it from the smaller group of influencers, and in June, we just took it to a larger scale. We did a bigger event for the U.S. It was recorded, and there’s going to be viewing parties across the globe. It was half a discussion around why gender equality matters, what the data shows, how we should think about it. And then it was half workshop; here are some things to think about, work through it on your own, work through it with people at your table, pair up with somebody. And so it was a great way to get the conversation started. And then the follow onto that which is coming next is this thing that we call Diversity Dialogues, which the business resource group will deliver. This is where we take a meatier topic like this and turns it into a more tactical, actionable topic that we provide a facilitator’s guide for, and then you can do it with any group you want – your team, you can pick the group and mix it up whatever you choose. But that’s the next step. In the fall, we’ll be delivering a Diversity Dialogues playbook and anybody can pick that up and pull a group together and walk through these conversations more deeply and take action.

 

The other outcome that we had from it was we – and again this is another proof metric – had folks from our investments team and from our America sales team say, “Hey, some of my team members went to either the smaller initial conversations you hosted or the big one you just did in June and we want to do it too. How do we keep it going? How do we do it?” Just the fact that people are coming to us asking for it versus us having to convince people to have the conversation is a really big leap from where we were in January of this year. Those are just a few of the things that have happened since, but there have certainly been a lot of other just personal “aha” moments. People that have come up and talked about it and said how they’ve taken this into their home life, how they’ve had a different conversation with people at work.

 

Some people have selected gender mentors, so if they’re female, pairing up with a male; if they’re male, pairing it with a female, just for gender type conversations. Who is a confidant that I can trust and that I’m comfortable enough with to ask some of these awkward, what Meg would call, “oops and ouch” questions. Which I think is really powerful and just has been really, really helpful. So, we’re still early days in some of those after effects, but they’re really positive ones.

 

Megan: 

One of the additional outcomes that typically comes from this, and research shows this, is: job satisfaction actually increases for individuals who feel like they can have conversations about gender differences at work. That’s one of the values of increasing people’s comfort and capability in having these kinds of conversations. The second thing I want to point out is, from an organizational change methodology, what Cheri and her counterparts in WAVE have done is really taken a smart approach to evolving the organization.

 

Starting small with a targeted group around influencers and those who are in senior positions who can role-model that it’s safe to actually have these kinds of conversations is a big reinforcing factor. And then taking it to a larger stage by expanding the number of people who are getting exposed to it and participating in it. And then with the Diversity Dialogues, the third stage, going deeper and broader at the same time. So, I just think again, this layered approach is what will help reinforce and bring about really an organic reaction to changing the conversation around gender and inclusion.

 

Cheri: 

And that’s it. I think that something that has been a bit of an epiphany for me coming away from this, from the conversations has been – so yes, the topic was about gender and understanding gender differences and similarities and how you can really fully harness that and how to have that conversation – but it really became about teaching us how to have an uncomfortable conversation as a firm. There are so many topics for which we could use the approach that Meg just described. You can take that approach and put it on top of any conversation that you need to have that is a little bit uncomfortable. Because again, that’s just not in our nature or our history at T. Rowe. We’re not known for that. This is a new muscle that we’re having to build and there’s a really great framework and sample of how to do that and repeat it in other ways beyond just this topic.

 

Megan: 

And I’ll just add to that. I think one of the hallmarks of T. Rowe’s culture that works extremely well with having these conversations is the deep care that associates here have about one another and about the customers. So, as you bring out data around the power of gender equality in terms of business results and in terms of customers, T. Rowe’s culture really grabs on to that and runs with it. The same with having deep care. As we ran these gender conversations, one of the really attractive pieces of behavior and feedback I would observe is how much people genuinely care to know that a colleague feels included or that, unintentionally, somebody felt excluded. I think culturally that’s something that works extremely well because of the values here at T. Rowe.

 

Melissa: 

What were some of the hurdles you faced as you were implementing this, and how did you overcome them?

 

Cheri: 

Some of the hurdles initially were getting over people’s fearful mindset of, “What is this conversation going to lead to? Is this going to be felt as punitive to men? Are people gonna start putting forth all these HR investigations?” And people were really taking it out into some extremes because of the external environment. There is a little bit of a fear, “Are we going to find our own Harvey Weinstein as a result of you opening up these conversations?” Ok, let’s base that fear in reality. If we do, isn’t that a good thing? Would that really be the worst thing? Wouldn’t you rather uncover it, then have it get uncovered out in the press. And do we really believe we’re going to find that? So quelling those initial fears was probably the biggest obstacle initially after that.

 

The second hurdle was when we were figuring out who to invite to those first more intimate meetings, it was really critical that we had the right mix of people that had a positive view, a neutral view, and perhaps a dissenting view on gender conversations. Initially, I would say, the list that was put forward for invitees was all like-minded people and it’s like, well that’s great, but we’re really not going to make any movement or progress if it’s just a bunch of people that agree gender equality is important and already understand the dynamics of gender conversations. Then the challenge became, well who are the people? How do you figure out who the dissenters are and how do you convince them to go? Because when you see the topic and the appointment and you know that you may have been chosen because you don’t share a common view positively on this it can be hard to get buy-in.

 

We’ve absolutely had some challenges with certain folks saying, “I can’t make it,” when we knew they could. We had to find those people uniquely and have some conversations with them to help settle them on what this is. And again, it went back to, “Well, what if I say something stupid? What if I say something that offends somebody? What if I hear something that I don’t like that offends me?” I think one of the things that Meg did really well, that we were able to use with certain individuals like that in advance, and I mentioned it earlier, was this, “oops and ouch.”

 

It’s this safe language that if you say something, if someone says something to you and it’s like, “Ooh, that crossed the line. ‘Oops’ or ‘ouch!'” It’s almost like a safe word you can use as a group to say this isn’t going to go any further, but it’s a signal to you that maybe you need to rethink that word choice or maybe you phrased that differently. It became a really easy way for people to get a lot more comfortable, especially once they saw people using it in some of the conversations.

 

But honestly, the biggest hurdle was just people’s own mindset and own thought of what this was, which was vastly different from what we were actually trying to do. And then once we had those initial conversations, everyone in that group – it was two groups of roughly 20 – became a voice box of what this is, and how exciting it was, and the best conversation they’ve ever had at T. Rowe, and wait until June when this thing happens. It created 40 advocates to go out and advertise this work in a very positive way for us. So it was worth it. But I don’t want to diminish those hurdles. Mindsets, I think, are really large hurdles because some of it is deeply ingrained in how you were raised, your belief system, your value system, your socioeconomic patterns. It’s just so ingrained in who you are as a human that it can be really hard sometimes to get people to become open enough to engage in the conversation.

 

Megan: 

I was just going to say one other thing that we did was, if you remember this, we had a focus group with men and women ahead of time to get their input on what would help create a safe environment. We also made sure we heard their concerns about this. That was just the way to kind of ease the topic, create some advocates for it that could say, “Hey, no, no, no. I participated in a focus group. It’s gonna be okay. I’m going to go to the first one” type of thing. Cheri already mentioned this, but having the CEO kick these off was a way to elevate the importance of it and to signal that this is the direction we’re going in.

 

Melissa: 

That makes sense. Now, I understand you partnered with the D&I team on this initiative. What’s important for others to consider about partnering with D&I or other groups in an organization?

 

Cheri: 

Well I think partnership with D&I is really critical because this is part of their mandate too. And like I was saying earlier, I think while this topic was about gender and became specific to WAVE and what I’m trying to do, it really is about having courageous conversations, and that is something that is very centered on any D&I topic. Having them involved so that they can then port our learnings to other business resource groups like Pride, or like Multicultural Mosaic, or into conversations that they are having with our management committee. It just becomes a great framework that you can share in many different avenues.

 

I think working with them was really important, and also just having their support. I would never want to go forward with a topic like this if I didn’t have the support of our head of D&I. You just have to be aligned. I also think the other partnership, and Meg already mentioned it, is having the CEO on board. I can’t imagine Bill would have ever said, “No.” But certainly if he had, that would change the elevation and the importance and significance of the conversation if he didn’t or if he wasn’t present. The fact that he was just so willing and wanted to do even more was really important for the team to know. We made that known: after Bill left after his kickoff, we shared with all the teams that he actually wanted to stay and be part of the discussion – just so you understand how close this is to his heart, how authentic he is, and why he wants to have this conversation, but we asked him to step out so that you all would feel perhaps a bit more open.

 

I just think those couple of things really matter. The other partnerships I think that are important are just those other leader influencers. For instance, Eric Veiel, who runs our equity division across the globe, is my sponsor for WAVE. He is our management committee sponsor. I made sure that Eric had done some blog posts in advance. He was in the discussions and vocal in the discussions. He has continued to carry that message forward. He has changed his view on why gender conversations matter. He didn’t have a bad one before. He just has a better reason why they matter now because he better understands the dynamics at play and how men and women are thinking about it from all sides. It’s really had a high impact and we had really great voices and influencers across the board showing up before, during, and after.

 

Megan: 

I think that’s a great call out Cheri because, while it’s incredibly important to have the CEO as a sponsor, you can’t underestimate the power of having multiple advocates and sponsors throughout the organization. Eric certainly played a role in the gender conversation groups that were held earlier; and he was also in attendance at the larger events. So again, the visible and active sponsorship is an important part that leaders need to play in creating this.

 

Cheri: 

I should’ve mentioned this earlier, one of the things these conversations has led to is the recognition of how much intersection there is to many other things that we’re already talking about. We had our leader of global distribution, Robert Higginbotham, recognizing that there’s a lack of gender equality in roles – in women in sales roles, specifically. He was very interested in creating a “Women in Sales” focused program. And so side-by-side we’re having these gender conversations and starting to figure out how do we do this Women in Sales program – both for women that are already in sales and how do we elevate them more quickly, and for women that aren’t thinking about sales and how do you get them there.

 

We wanted to tie those two together. Because it’s the same conversation deployed in a slightly nuanced way. We also had our investments team have four gender workshops as a result of the follow-on to the gender conversations we had. Again, that was them coming to us saying, “We want to do this.” In a firm like T. Rowe, if you can get Investments to have that type of conversation, that is a very significant positive impact that others are hearing and seeing and getting. It’s really taking hold.

 

The aftershock of everything has been really, really positive, especially when you think about the hurdles I was talking about at the beginning where we had to convince the people to even show up to the first meeting. Now we’re getting people saying, “Hey, we want you. How do you come in? Or how does Meg come in? How do we do these? And we want to do four of them, not just one of them.” So it’s really been high impact and really a signature strategy for WAVE and for the firm in 2019.

 

Melissa: 

It’s really amazing. The holistic result to it as well having crossed all sections of the organization. As you said, even somebody’s personal family life. It’s really, really impactful. It’s very impressive.

 

Meg, would you be able to offer some simple steps to others at other organizations on how they can take individual steps to help individuals move forward?

 

Megan: 

Sure. I’m going to echo a couple of things Cheri has said throughout this time. Certainly the business resource group can take an active partnership with their D&I leads to really start figuring out, “How can we have bolder or more courageous conversations in our firm?” I think any leader of people can also take an active role. Cheri gave examples with the CEO, with Eric Veiel, with Robert Higginbotham. All of those leaders took an active role in a variety of ways. Again, it doesn’t have to be one way. It can be many ways: partnering with the Resource Group, partnering with D&I, etc.

 

The other thing I would offer is that, as individuals and as managers in firms, taking your first step to start talking with colleagues about, “What’s your experience being a male, being a female at work? What are some of the hurdles you’re experiencing?” These are just easy ways leaders and individuals can begin to open up the dialogue. The key is also: educate yourself. There’s a ton of research out there, whether it’s on Catalyst, it’s on leanin.org, it’s on Glassdoor, it’s in Forbes. There’s tons of research easily available if you want to educate yourself or gain some tips for “how do I go about engaging my colleagues in conversations about diversity, inclusion and equality?”

 

Melissa: 

That’s wonderful. Anything else either of you would like to mention or highlight before we bring this to a close?

 

Cheri: 

I would just highlight: don’t underestimate the importance of taking a conversation that maybe seems slight. I think this is how this one started: “Well, you feel that Cheri, but I don’t know that the rest of us see that or feel that.” And really using what Meg said: the more you ask, the more you find out. “What’s been your journey?” I think it’s important to hear people’s journey. “Where have you been met with some roadblocks? What’s been your experience through that?” Innocuous questions that help you can find out a lot. That’s really the path that we took and it led to this. Again, you’ve heard the results, and even for us, what we wanted out of this was an open dialogue to recognize that this is something we need to address.

 

What we got from it was massive buy-in, hunger to keep the conversations going, and a framework to have difficult or uncomfortable conversations going forward, which was well beyond what we anticipated we would get. I would just echo, hearken back to that CEO pledge, which I know many of the firms that might be reading this transcript or listening to this have signed. It’s really living up to that pledge that you signed and being okay with having the more provocative or bold conversations.

 

Melissa: 

That’s fantastic. Well, I really want to thank you both so much for engaging in this conversation today. Cheri, you’ve done tremendously wonderful work at T. Rowe. It’s just great to see, particularly as a woman. And Meg, you’ve been instrumental in helping the firm as a whole address all of these very difficult topics that help them come to very successful results, which is great. So, all I can say is continue forward! Keep going!

 

Megan: 

Thank you.

 

Cheri: 

Yeah. Thanks so much, guys.